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My experience with Binary Options, what you should know ...
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Type me please :)
How old are you? What's your gender? Give us a general description of yourself. I am 15 and male even though I'm not exactly sure about that as I get older I've kinda started to question the gender binary. I often describe myself as a walking contradiction in that I can have a lot of energy and generally make good impressions on strangers but also have crippling social anxiety because of overthinking and am really awkward in interactions with people that I won't never see again, and even though I love being seen as an individual and the concept of individuality i also have a fear of rejection and a desire to fit in in some ways to give only a few examples. • Is there a medical diagnosis that may impact your mental stability somehow? I have moderate ADHD, but that's all I've been diagnosed with. • Describe your upbringing. Did it have any kind of religious or structured influence? How did you respond to it? My upbringing has been pretty free. I have had free reign of the internet since I can remember for better or for worse, and my parents are I'd say slightly less strict than average. I've been lucky enough to generally not have any religion forced on me, and would call myself an atheist, though I would probably join the satanic temple if that counts. I was a "gifted child" in elementary school and my parents very much nurtured this, and my teachers also did, which made my earlier years pretty positive, as it gave me kind of a feeling of being special. Currently I get into the occasional lowkey philosophical conversation with my dad, and am monitored pretty minimally unless I have a ton of missing work. I very much like not having had a super structured environment and have been thankful for it. • What do you do as a job or as a career (if you have one)? Do you like it? Why or why not? I want to be a psychology major, because I think it would be very interesting to learn more about how people work and understand them better, and also to be able to diagnose myself accurately. But primarily I don't want a big office job, and the human mind seems so interesting and hearing others' experiences to expand my perspective and to help people sounds nice so it seems like a pretty perfect job for me, or also going into psychological research is also very appealing to me. • If you had to spend an entire weekend by yourself, how would you feel? Would you feel lonely or refreshed? I would probably feel really relaxed and liberated. I love the silence of late night and having that all day would be great. I love being home alone. I'd spend some time just thinking about whats going on in my life and what I can do in the future, maybe blast some music and sing along to it, and talk to myself really loudly. Overall yes please sign me up. • What kinds of activities do you prefer? Do you like, and are you good at sports? Do you enjoy any other outdoor or indoor activities? I like acting because it's interesting to try to figure out what a character would say and be thinking in a scene and i don't really get stage fright despite my terrible social anxiety surprisingly probably because I started acting at a young age before the overthinking got too bad. I feel guilty whenever it makes me feel like a show off though. I also really enjoy going on long hikes, and again listening to music or just thinking. I guess depends, I like outdoor activities if they're pretty lowkey, but absolutely hate all sports. My sport of choice is track/cross country because it doesnt require hand eye coordination and I'm actually decently good at it. Indoor activities are nice too though, i enjoy relaxing inside for sure. Additionally, at night I often will write big paragraphs about whatever idea pops into my head and post them to my "spam" instagram account with 13 followers. • How curious are you? Do you have more ideas then you can execute? What are your curiosities about? What are your ideas about - is it environmental or conceptual, and can you please elaborate? I'd say I'm very curious, but I'm bad at pursuing my curiosity. I am always thinking of new things that may be interesting to research, but only end up looking up a quarter of them. I have kind of phases in interests. My most recent one has been myers briggs, hence this post because of my obsession with correctly typing myself over the past few months. I also enjoy looking up philosophical questions, like reading articles on philosophy, and I really like this one guy billbeteet on tiktok and thinking about them. So I'd say conceptual even though a lot of my ideas are also more grounded like how bread companies should sell the end pieces separately at a lower cost. • Would you enjoy taking on a leadership position? Do you think you would be good at it? What would your leadership style be? I would want to take a leadership position more preventatively than to get a feeling of power. I would be pretty lax, but I also want my ideas to be heard because often times my brain gets into this mode of wanting things to go my way. So again, preventatively so I could make sure my ideas got heard, and so that things would go "right." I am very open to other ideas, and if someone else's idea is better I am not afraid to admit it and go with that. • Are you coordinated? Why do you feel as if you are or are not? Do you enjoy working with your hands in some form? Describe your activity? I am not coordinated at all, I mean I have decent handwriting because in 4th grade one day I was like "hey I should have good handwriting" I can't catch a ball to save my life though, and have slow reaction times, so I suck at sports as I already said. I often bump into things as well. • Are you artistic? If yes, describe your art? If you are not particular artistic but can appreciate art please likewise describe what forums of art you enjoy. Please explain your answer. I am casually artistic I guess, I used to be more so in middle and elementary school. I was obsessed with all things anime in 6th grade, so that gave me a decent base, and now when I do draw I'd say I'm above average though not by a lot. I'm not the most creative artistically however, and when I do have ideas my brain sometimes will come up with reasons why its not a good idea or it's too much of a cliche or something like that, so I guess that's part of why I don't draw too much because I don't have enough good ideas. I am decent in performing arts as I said earlier, but again, I'd say just slightly above average for my age. I generally tend to lose interest in a form of art when it becomes more work and less of just a creative fun outlet if I am not extremely interested in it. I dropped out of band because I did not want to bother with the more complicated musical theory because I did not want to pursue a career in music, so I didn't want it to be so serious. I like indie and r&b music generally. • What's your opinion about the past, present, and future? How do you deal with them? I am sometimes embarrassed by how much time I spend dwelling on stupid socially awkward shit I have done in the past. On one hand I want to say it's in the past, but sometimes it is kind of interesting to me to consider what I could have done to change a situation or a comeback to save myself from embarrassment (and they're really good too, just a few days/weeks/moths/years late) In the present I spend most of my time observing others, and occasionally coming up with scenarios for strangers' lives, or just observing people at school in general. I'm not at all a thrill seeker, even though when I can work up the courage for a roller coaster I like them. I also spend a lot of time thinking about self improvement, even though i rarely implement them lol. But I also plan for the future to an extent, even though I never like to narrow down my options in planning. I have had no idea what I wanted my future to look like until this year. • How do you act when others request your help to do something (anything)? If you would decide to help them, why would you do so? It really depends. Of course if it benefits me, then yeah. Or if its inconsequential enough for me yeah I'll do it. But I don't usually go out of my way for others. If they have good reasoning just in general or need the help enough I'll also do it. • Do you need logical consistency in your life? Absolutely. I can't stand arguments that contradict themselves, and I beat myself up for my own hypocrisy very often. I need reasons behind actions, even though sometimes I have trouble putting my own into words. I try to avoid acting on impulse but also often overthink actions so much that the only way to get myself to make a decision is to just impulsively go for it. Rejection therapy haha. • How important is efficiency and productivity to you? haha funny question, I need efficiency in everything. I hate extra steps or having to do more than is needed a lot unless I am interested in a topic in which case I will learn everything I can. But generally I do stuff as quickly as decently possible. However, I am terrible at getting myself to do any sort of schoolwork that I am not interested in because of this, so I am not productive unless I like the assignment. So yeah I love efficient and to the point stuff, but am not very productive in most cases, so I can't really judge others for not being productive if not. • Do you control others, even if indirectly? How and why do you do that? I wouldn't call myself manipulative and if I do feel controlling I feel incredibly guilty most of the time. However, sometimes I get into a weird state of wanting someone else to do one thing in place of another and pressuring them to do that if I think its better especially if I care about them, but I wouldn't say I'm controlling. • What are your hobbies? Why do you like them? I doodle casually occasionally, I like writing long paragraphs about stuff in my notes app when inspiration hits, I also like going on walks and thinking about stuff. Again acting is cool sometimes even though I'm bad at the social aspect of it. I also sing pretty casually, in my school jazz band last year, and chorus this year. I love thinking about stuff because I guess it kind of connects me to my elementary school years, and kinda gives me self validation that I am smart because getting so much in elementary school and now so little validation of that topic has caused me to doubt myself a lot but also thinking about stuff just is cool to see new perspectives on stuff and sometimes come up with bizarre stuff just for fun. I also have been just kinda naturally talented in performing arts in that I have a "naturally good" singing voice so i'm not too embarrassed about that so its more fun, and i get some compliments occasionally about it which is cool. Kinda same with acting in that I understood that you have to really get into a character's head from a young age, and I often will have specific ways that I see specific scenes and lines playing out just by looking at a script so thats kind of fun to play out, and pretty no stress as well. • What is your learning style? What kind of learning environments do you struggle with most? Why do you like/struggle with these learning styles? Do you prefer classes involving memorization, logic, creativity, or your physical senses? My favorite classes are english and history because I love analyzing texts and possible motives and connections behind stuff and my english teacher says that I make a lot of conceptual connections very quickly. So logic and creativity are my favorite things to use in learning. I like when I have somehting that I can think about thoroughly that is open for interpretation, where subjects like math and science where there is generally going to be only one answer are less interesting to me, and I don't have the motive to build up the base in those topics to get to the actual interesting stuff. I hate rigid learning environments that won't let me do things my own way, especially because I typically think my way is better. I also suck at turning stuff in on time, I am much more "quality over quantity." • How good are you at strategizing? Do you easily break up projects into manageable tasks? Or do you have a tendency to wing projects and improvise as you go? I always wing it. Making a plan takes so much time and I typically don't even follow plans anyway, so I don't see much reason to do one for me. I can make pretty good decisions if presented with a new problem in a project, but I don't strategize too much in the long term because life is too unpredictable for that and I often end up not liking a project initially and changing it. • What are your aspirations in life, professionally and personally? I don't want to really accomplish too much. I don't want to be rich or own a company or anything, or have kids. I want a quiet life in a small remotely located house in europe where I live with a significant other and spend most of my time researching stuff and talking to my s/o and going on walks and stuff. I want to work in psychology, and live fairly comfortably, but have also been fortunate enough to have been told i will be set for life money wise so I am not very ambitious career wise. Just a steady casual job in psychology that interests me and I can learn from is good for me. I guess some would be pretty furious at my ideal life and lack of real motivation to contribute to society, but I don't really see myself getting to be a ceo by working, nor do I have the drive to do so most likely, so might as well spend my time on something that interests me, and live a relaxed life. • What are your fears? What makes you uncomfortable? What do you hate? Why? I am deathly afraid of heights, I can't even go near any large fall. I am extremely cautious in general. I am made uncomfortable in situations where I can't think of anything to say or things are completely out of my control. I am also made uncomfortable by people who make stupid remarks to try to get to you that are too dumb to reason with because in their heads they would have "won" and thought they got to me, and if I try to reason with them they just take that as me being "triggered" oddly specific but those people I hate so much. I hate when people just won't listen to logic at all in that neighborhood too, or when they can't give me a good reason why I should do something. I also hate some parts of social interactions that I just suck at like I can't make eye contact because I assume that the other person assumes it means something, and I don't know where the fuck to look when someone is talking to me or let alone passing me on the street like i dont want to look at them but just looking straight ahead is so weird and suspicious. I just generally assume people notice my small motions more than they do in social interactions which makes me hyperaware of everything I am doing and just makes it really unpleasant especially if I don't know someone. There is also nothing I hate more than someone who dances around stuff to try to preserve my feelings and I wish people were brutally honest with one another all the time because I think it would make so many interactions feel so much more genuine. • What do the "highs" in your life look like? The highs of my life all relate to a complete lack of stress, or having some sort of mental breakthrough for myself that gives me a new perspective on something, which often relieves stress, so yeah, stress. I love casual situations where I can just talk about whatever with my few close friends, or when I am just sitting peacefully on a hill listening to music and thinking without anything bugging me saying I have to get out of there to work on something. Just being able to think without worrying about anything is amazing. • What do the "lows" in your life look like? Contrasting the highs, stressful, when I've dug myself into a difficult hole to get out of, when I have to take life more seriously than I usually do. When I didn't do homework for a month and had a pile of 30+ missing assignments, when I did something shitty and had to face reality and own up to it when I am so unused to taking anything so seriously and also was embarrassed about it. I hate when things get too serious or real. • How attached are you to reality? Do you daydream often, or do you pay attention to what's around you? If you do daydream, are you aware of your surroundings while you do so? Not very, I am often observing my surroundings when out in public walking or something, but I often will daydream to an extent as well while walking. In school I often can zone out thinking about something and miss a lot about a class. I also get distracted very easily when trying to focus on stuff and my mind drifts to something more interesting always when I find something to be boring. However, sometimes in new social situations i get really nervous and almost paranoid in which case I am very aware and awkward about what I do and as I said before, hyperaware of my movements. • Imagine you are alone in a blank, empty room. There is nothing for you to do and no one to talk to. What do you think about? I would probably first think through the events that led me to that. And I guess then the future, or if I would want to get out or not. Eventually I'd probably get to existential stuff and maybe start thinking about things that could have changed the earth's track completely, and maybe then start wondering about aliens, or just what else could be in the universe. • How long do you take to make an important decision? And do you change your mind once you've made it? I take forever to make pretty much any decision, I am incredibly indecisive. I will take minutes to order at a restaurant, and constantly am creating every possible situation that could come out of something, and have to think through all of that before confidently making a decision. As I said earlier, I'm at the point where I kind of just decide to do stuff because thinking it through takes too long. And yes if I get new information I will go through the whole process of weighing the pros and cons again. • How long do you take to process your emotions? How important are emotions in your life? I don't think about my emotions much. I'd say I'm pretty progressive politically, and I generally either assume the best or worst in people, no in between, but my moral compass is open to new information I guess, and I don't really think of emotions first in too many situations, even though I do like the feeling of helping others. • Do you ever catch yourself agreeing with others just to appease them and keep the conversation going? How often? Why? Only if I need someone to like me for some reason, otherwise I state my mind and absolutely DESPISE sugar coating. I do occasionally feel pressure to fit in however, for example I started wearing more trendy clothes this year because I needed new clothes so I just decided to buy trendy stuff because it would improve my image i guess and i needed new stuff anyways. I have a constant battle in my head with loving being an individual and wanting to know what it feels like to fit in perfectly. • Do you break rules often? Do you think authority should be challenged, or that they know better? If you do break rules, why? I break rules that I don't think should exist, and think that abusive authority should be challenged, or even just overly assertive authority should be. I do have a certain respect for authority that genuinely respects those that they are above, and recognise them as human beings as well. I think that anything that is wrong or hurts the innocent or just overuses power for no reason should be challenged. When I break rules I do it less as a statement, but more just because I consider the rule to be stupid and unnecessary, or overcontrolling. Ok so I just spent like an hour on this lol hopefully I can get some responses from this.
me_irlgbt survey results! really long post! this took me 6 days! exclamation mark!
Long post. REALLY long post. buckle in.
TLDR at the end
First off, thanks to everybody who responded! There were 467 responses in total, which is amazing. I know filling out surveys online can be boring, so I really appreciate you all indulging me for this. A few notes before we get started!
The aim of this research was to get a better picture of the people who involve themselves in this shitposty mess. Nothing was too strenuous, and as this was basically just research for funsies, it’s obviously not fully academic. I did try to follow general good practices, but I’ve also fucked about a little. This isn’t going in a fancy journal.
I have presented the data with the finest graphs Google Sheets has to offer. I am not an expert in using spreadsheets, so some of it may be, in academic terms, somewhat fucky.
I am not an especially adept researcher or statistician. I’m studying this shit in college but that doesn’t mean I’m good at it yet. I know we get some researchers round these parts, and I’d thank you to not cringe too hard at my work.
Now. Let's get started with the results.
Total survey responses: 467
AGE: 460 responses
https://imgur.com/thGOvqi As we can see here, the majority of respondents are between the ages of 13-24, with most being 18-24. No surprise, this pretty much tracks with the general demographics of reddit. We have 3 tiny kiddos who responded, bless them. One person over 60, heyhowareyougorge. It’s interesting to cross-reference the age demographics with the type of posts we see here. I’m in my early 20s, which in gay years is like being in your early 40s, and i’ve been out for years. I see a lot of closet or coming out type posts, which I personally don’t relate to as much any more, but that totally tracks with the amount of youngins we have here. If you’re looking to karma whore, here’s the data you need.
COUNTRY: 457 responses
https://imgur.com/xwAb3g8 So, clearly very US-heavy. Again, not a surprise here for a US-based website. I would like to confess to purposefully splitting up the UK demographics out of sheer curiosity too; I’m Scottish and wanted to know how many fellow Scots I had. Happenin troops. I also wanted to use this to see how many people were from countries with less legal protections for being LGBT. The countries in here I’d particularly like to highlight are: Dominica, where it is illegal to be gay. Penalties include a 10 year prison sentence, or “incarceration in a psychiatric institution.” Absolutely no legal protections for any LGBT people. That’s pretty fucked. India has no legally recognised same sex unions, no same sex marriage, no adoption, but all of these things have been proposed. some anti-discrimination laws. They have a third gender option, called hijra. Trans people do have some legal recognition of gender, which is nice. As far as I’m aware, this situation is pretty unique to India. Qatar, where same-sex sexual activity is punished by fines, imprisonment, or the death penalty. Obviously no legal protections. Russia, where same-sex sexual activity is technically legal, but in Chechnya, it is heavily punished. Gay people are abducted and sent to concentration camps in this region. Russia has done little to prevent this. Singapore, where there is technically punishment of up to 2 years in prison for male same-sex sexual activity, but this is apparently not enforced any more. F/F is legal though. Malaysia, where it remains illegal to be gay. Punishments can be up to 20 years in prison, fines, or whippings, just for engaging in same-sex sexual activity. However, a 2016 court ruling did recognise gender changes as a fundamental constitutional right, according to wikipedia. I’d like us to take a moment to remember, especially if you’re from the US, that the fight for LGBT rights is far from over. It’s not some distant thing. Even people on this good gay subreddit could face severe punishments for their identity. If you are in a country with legal protections, take a moment to be thankful. If you can, please educate yourself on the state of LGBT rights in these countries, and see if you can do anything to help.
ETHNICITY: 463 responses
https://imgur.com/hk6KINj Again, not particularly surprising results here. Reddit is a pretty overwhelmingly white website. I’m a full blown white person so I’m not sure how much I can really say here without verging out of my own lane. I do think we should keep this in mind however, because as a largely white subreddit we may not have so many people calling out racism when they see it. I don’t want POC to feel ignored here just because they make up a smaller percentage of our demographics, so I welcome any POC responses here as to how we’re doing with that. I personally haven’t seen too much racism, as the bigotry we tend to get is centred around our lgbt identities. Whenever I see it it tends to be anti-black, and usually confined to usernames. I do try to ban that whenever I see it, but I’m only one person, so I do rely on you to report things to me!
GENDER: 467 responses
https://imgur.com/GOMLltE https://imgur.com/BY9eRfU Now, this is the one I’ve had to go in and fuck with. This, and all the other charts, are basically just the raw data in visual form. The chart above is each individual response, allowing for those who selected multiple options. So, rather than counting every time someone selected “male”, then “nonbinary”, etc, it’s counting every time a person selected “male + cisgender,” “nonbinary + queer”, if that makes sense. This chart here is the one I’ve fucked with, that just has the amount of times an option was selected. https://imgur.com/ejdAKm9 I basically simplified the data here. Whenever someone said something like unsure, unknown, etc, this was put under “questioning”. The “other” responses are the only ones that received significant editing. These were long-form responses that could not be parsed into simple answers, so here they are in their entirety.
“Something like that lol”
“I don’t have one of these ‘gender identities’ everyone keeps talking about”
“Lol i’m absolutely fucked and i have no idea”
“What is this ‘gender’ you speak of”
“My sex is female”
Now, I could probably have parsed them into other categories, but honestly I thought this was more entertaining. Some important things to remember when reading this data! * I collected it pretty poorly. I wasn’t aware of how google would collate it and i done goofed a bit. Take it with a pinch of salt. * once i “simplified” the data to look at how many times each option was selected, I ended up with almost 800 pieces of data. You’ll recall that only 467 people responded to the survey, so there is significant overlap. This is why I'm showing you two versions. The crossover is not fully clear, and there’s probably ways I could process this data better, but i’m gonna be real with y'all it’s a lot to wade through and I'm honestly just bad at this * This question allowed people to choose as many or as few labels as they wanted. Some people listed their gender as just “transgender” with no other qualifiers, for example. Therefore this data should be treated as only a partial picture of the gender demographics of this subreddit
PRONOUNS: 464 responses
https://imgur.com/lsP8661 Again, I arguably messed up on the collection of results here, BUT, I do think it’s very interesting to see the combinations of pronouns people use. For example, I think it’s cool to see that, among those who use they/them pronouns
25 respondents use they/them as their only pronouns
31 use he/him and they/them
30 use she/her and they/them
Now obviously it’s gonna be difficult to argue for these results to be generalised to the population at large, but this does support what I’ve seen anecdotally for a while; neutral pronouns are often used alongside non-neutral pronouns. We might not have seen this if I had been a better researcher. Here is the version with my own editing, simplification, and parsing of “other” results: https://imgur.com/6sR4w3U Other results are as follows, presented without comment
”A variety of neopronouns”
”Whatever is right in the moment”
”in the closet for everyone except online friends”
”well i would use those pronouns if i was out or if anyone respected them lmao help me”
”the normal ones”
”All? IDK it’s been a very confusing time”
”he/him among general public, they/them among close friends but out in public, would like to use she/her but only when out and fully transitioned”
”I don't know what this means”
Among neopronoun usage, we have specific examples of: * ve/ver * it/its If we put this alongside the “other” responses that indicate neopronoun usage, we can say that 5 of our respondents use, or are comfortable using, neopronouns. I think this is an interesting point to highlight, because common transphobe rhetoric is that people are using a “confusing” variety of pronouns. We have a generally trans-friendly sub (at least I hope so), and out of 464 respondents to this question, only 5 people indicated neopronoun usage. Could it be that this line of thinking, that people are using confusing newfangled pronouns, is just an uninformed scream from the ignorant?
SEXUALITY: 467 responses
https://imgur.com/CXVxEKc Again, raw data. For this one I don’t feel it’s super necessary to go in and parse out who picked multiple things, because the data here seems kinda straightforward, if you’ll pardon the pun. We have a lot of bi and pan people here. Again, it’s difficult to argue for the generalisation of these results, but this does support evidence of bisexual people making up the majority of the LGBT community. If we compare this to the by now well known findings from the Kinsey institute, this does support the belief that most people are likely neither a Kinsey 1 or a Kinsey 6, but somewhere in the middle. It’s not directly comparable because I didn’t use the same metrics, but it’s interesting to think about. I also think it’s interesting to see so many straight respondents. Of course, this could just be trans people who are straight, but I know from the comments I’ve received that some people who responded are totally non-LGBT, just allies. Also, shoutouts to “an absolute mess” and “just desperate for love”. Same, babes.
EDUCATION: 461 responses
There were enough “other” responses that I felt like I needed to go in and take those out, so here’s the raw data before I did that. https://imgur.com/eguYGeK And here is the simplified version https://imgur.com/DZClNVV Here are the “Other” responses
have not completed high forms of education
IDK not american
middle school (x4)
wasn't allowed to go to school by parents, currently studying for high school entrance exam
2nd year degree
in 5th year of phd but no master's earned on the way
professional degree (Juris Doctor)
certificate of achievement, 1yr college
What’s a diploma
My favourite response is “IDK not american”. As we all know, education only exists in America. Anyway, this pretty much tracks along the age demographics. With a population mostly aged between 13-24, it makes sense that the majority are high school or college educated. Of course, it should be kept in mind that not everybody’s education is a linear or traditional experience, and won’t completely track with our age demographics. Shoutouts to the 3-4 people with PhDs tho, mad respect. And that wraps up our demographics section! Onto some of the cool shit.
PERSONAL LIFE SECTION
POLITICAL ALIGNMENT: 477/467
https://imgur.com/TUQNBVJ Here’s the raw data. As you can see, there’s a lot of write-in responses. If you’ve spent any time hanging out on this subreddit, I don’t think it’s any shock to see how overwhelmingly left-leaning we are. I think this sort of goes with the territory of being an LGBT subreddit though, we do tend to develop liberal politics as an attempt to avoid homophobia and transphobia, and then from there it’s easy to fall into leftist politics, especially on places like Reddit. Simplified data: https://imgur.com/isja5Kc Other responses:
Don’t have these words in AUS
I have a hard time understanding all the different words, but I know I’m the opposite of Donald Trump
Hard to say since these terms mean slightly different things in different places/political climates
Whoever isn't a racist bigot
slutty sjw whos ready to bust a fat nut and shoot capitalists
angry *Governmental axis: libertarian. Economic axis: centrist. Social axis: progressive
I don't have a strict political alignment, I just think that every politician can have good ideas whatever their alignment is
I vote based on the current goals of each party
regulated markets, welfare capitalism, taco trucks on every corner. thank you for coming to my ted talk.
Whatever is Civil Rights
no one changes anything but rich mens pocket books
Prefer not to say
We’re clearly a very left-leaning subreddit here. I think it’s interesting that out of a total of 447 responses, only 9 disclosed that they were on the right-hand side of the political spectrum. Is this because only 4% of people round these parts are on the right, or is due to an unwillingness to identify with conservative politics, even on an anonymous survey? Difficult to know for sure. Interesting data tho amirite. Also whoever answered “slutty sjw whos ready to bust a fat nut”, same girl
Raw data: https://imgur.com/oQQWZH9 Again, a fuckfest here, but even before we go in and parse things out we can see that 336/460 indicate atheist or agnostic beliefs. This sort of goes along with my hypothesis/unscientific belief that a majority of LGBT people are non-religious, or will find religion themselves later on. I personally would love to do research on the prevalence of found religion in later life, especially pagan/wiccan type beliefs, in LGBT people. I think a lot of us do really desire that sort of connection to spirituality, but can’t always get it from the religions we were raised in. This is from my perspective as a western white person raised around christian/catholic beliefs; I know there’s differences with, for example, Judaism, where it’s fully baked into the culture to question and argue with your own beliefs, so I know there’s a hell of a lot of cultural bias going into this assumption. Simplified data https://imgur.com/FimSsoh I’ve kept Atheist/agnostic as separate categories, grouped the different Satanism responses, and again created an “other” category. Other responses:
Both Christian and agnostic
I don't believe in a conscious force making decisions, but there is some sort of force underlying the physical world
idk man. dudeism?
Its a mix
None (not explicitly atheist or agnostic, just...ehhhhh)
Given that this is Reddit, I’m not surprised by the high amount of atheist/agnostic responses, given that the site still has a strong legacy left behind by the glory days of /atheist. With this bias in mind, I do still think this presents a compelling basis for further research on the religious affiliations of LGBT people.
RELATIONSHIP STATUS 465/467
https://imgur.com/vcrZae3 This one actually didn’t require much fucking with, so I’ve just presented the gently simplified data. Other responses
In a queer-platonic relationship
I walk a lonley road, the only one that i have ever known.
I’m not really sure rn
In a polyamorous relationship
I have a domme
On a crash course to divorce :(
Wow we’re a single lot aren’t we Honestly I think this correlates with the age demographics. If I were a better data analyst I’d go in and confirm this with the data, but I’m not, so I won’t. Knowing that we have a lot of younger people, who are more likely to have either no relationship or a frequently changing/unstable relationship status, this kinda seems about right. It would be interesting though to compare this with relationship data from other LGBT communities. I think we all know the struggles of finding available partners, especially when you are, as the data suggests, in high school or college. It’d be interesting to see if the high rate of single people here is due to a desire to seek out other LGBT people in order to gain a sense of community as well. Maybe LGBT people in a relationship feel they already have enough of a sense of community and belonging and are therefore less likely to seek out LGBT spaces online. That’ll require some good qualitative data tho which is time consuming. Could be really cool tho.
[Dislike] However, I do not condone jokes of violence against Terfs
I don't even know what that is.
I don't know or care what that means
I hate them so god damned much even the mention of the word terf makes me wanna punch a *wall then vomit.
I have never heard of this
I have no idea who they are
Idk bout them
Never heard of them
Not sure exactly what that means but if I understand it right I dislike them because I support transgender people
strongly dislike is not enough
[just a transphobic pro-terf comment]
strongly dislike isn't strong enough.
TERF is a slur lol
terfs r trash
They can go to hell
They have no place
Too little experience with them to form a meaningful opinion
we should set them on fire
trans rights babey
I think this is a pretty conclusive result. Of the 29 “other” responses, 20 of them indicate Dislike to Strongly Dislike. 5 respondents said Strongly Like, and 1 said Like. These respondents were the only ones who also put in positive “other” responses. 82% of responses were Strongly Dislike. This is honestly going to inform my moderation style. I always remove outwardly transphobic comments, especially if they mirror the “rational people” comment in the responses above. However, seeing such a strong dislike of TERFs will likely mean I’ll remove more comments that are gently TERFy but not as explicit. I do want to reiterate, this is a feminist space. I personally am a strong feminist. I hold some more radical feminist views. I also believe trans women are women, they have a place in the feminist movement, and in women’s spaces. You can absolutely be a trans INCLUSIVE radical feminist. Feminism is almost useless without intersectionality. Trans people are valid and welcomed here. Transphobia will never be tolerated here. Not up for debate.
At first glance, this notion makes sense to me, but I know to little about the issue to form a meaningful opinion
Dissagree w/ but not dislike as people
Don't know whether they're right or wrong since I'm not trans therefore can't confirm shit
I can understand where they're coming from, but i think it's a harmful ideology all the same
I don't agree transition is necessary, since sometimes staying in the closet is the only way to survive. But dysphoria of some kind is necessary.
I don't understand how people can be trans if they've never experienced Dysphoria. Not being a dick, i just can't find an explaination.
I get where they're coming from
I have no opinion. If somebody says they're trans, all i want are their preferred pronouns.
I haven't heard about this before, I'd have to read up on it before giving an opinion!
I just need to shout about the exclusionary nature of the stance
I think dysphoria is necessary, but not medically transitioning
I’d err on the side of caution because it sounds like it could be ehhh. I don’t know enough about *the trans part of the LGBT+ community to properly answer this one
I’m not sure about them yet
It isnt nessacsry but many people do experience it
Neutral as long as they aren’t excessively pushy or rude about it.
New to this concept tbh
Non-binary trans is still trans.
Not enough reading or research done on my part to have an informed opinion
Not familiar with this topic enough to say
punch them too
Therapists should treat it
There is background to their points but their attitude stunts progress for all trans people
they're very flammable too
trans people are trans regardless of what gender affirmations, if any, they choose to undergo. ❤️
trans rights babey
uncle terfs, more or less.
wanting to be a different gender = gender dysphoria, so 90% of the time transmedicalism is just *pointless gatekeeping
This is the one I definitely needed trans people’s opinions on. I am cis-ish (androgynous butchy lesbian who occasionally likes a cheeky they/them pronoun but is for all intents and purposes a woman/dyke) and so feel entirely unqualified to weigh in and decide which side of the issue is “correct”.
56.2% of responses indicate either Dislike or Strongly Dislike transmedicalists
Of the “other” responses, 15/29 indicate a dislike or disagreement with transmedicalist ideology
There is a large amount of “neutral” or “no opinion” responses. I can assume a lot of these are from cis people who, like me, feel unqualified to weigh in.
This is also likely to inform my moderation style somewhat. Again, I always remove blatant transphobia when I see it, and this includes anybody stating that nonbinary people are not valid, not real, etc. From these results, I’m going to assume this is the right move, and continue with this strategy. I personally lean towards not believing in transmedicalism. Some of this may very well stem from my feminist views, but I generally think gender is extremely fluid, and that labels are only worth what the individual believes they represent. If any of you have an understanding of sociology, I tend towards a Weberian/symbolic interactionist approach towards labels in general. Therefore I believe whatever a person identifies as is probably the right identity for them, regardless of what I may think of it. This isn’t necessarily relevant to your understanding of the survey, but it may be relevant to your understanding of my moderation actions. That wraps up this section! This was a long one, thanks for sticking with us <3
THOUGHTS ON THE SUBREDDIT 457/467
https://imgur.com/VUwfXtq Finally, some data i don’t need to fuck around with. Note to self, do more ratings like this. Obviously as a mod I’m happy to see that opinions trend above 5 here. The average score we’re getting here is 7.87 (2dp) and honestly, I’m down. If that was a movie on IMDB, that shit would be a pretty well-received movie. The most frequent response here is 8/10, and most responses are between 7-10, which tells me people generally enjoy hanging out here. I know there’s always a strong chance for bias here, because the people who are likely to respond to a kinda long survey for a subreddit are likely to be people who either really enjoy it, or really don’t. However, even with that bias, I’m gonna just take the W if that’s cool with you.
THOUGHTS ON MODERATION 445/467
https://imgur.com/pmkKyuC Slightly lower trend than overall subreddit opinions, but the average is almost the same at 7.73 (2dp). Since sending out this survey I have made some slight tweaks to my moderation style, as well as making some additions to the automoderator. We’ll chat about that later. I’m glad the overall trend here is positive though; I don’t want this to be a place where you all just end up resenting me.
i dont have a reddit account, and i very rarely check comments. I dont think i'm the best person to answer this.
I dont pay attention enough to say
I just discovered this subreddit like yesterday so I don't really know
I think we need mods who do more than just let people police the sub themselves. We may only need a new mod if the current mods don’t change how they mod. Respond to reports is what I’m saying (I don’t see almost any removed comments ever)
idk i just enjoy the memes
idk im just lurking here
Idk. How many moderators do you have?
if they're good moderators
maybe? i think a little more mod participation would be cool. just seeing admins in comments laughing and joking along with us, and sharing in the memes. i enjoy the hands-off approach but that doesn't mean i don't ever wanna see more mods chilling out and sorta like.,..... making their presence known and joining in on the fun!!! yknow it makes it feel safer
no idea tbh but it seems to be running ok
So the general answer here is that we maybe need more mods. Far more people said no than said yes. Personal interpretation is that people may have felt more comfortable answering “maybe” than answering “yes”. I know that having one active mod for a 90k subreddit is not usual, and by now most subreddits will have gotten a couple more people in. I won’t speak for parlayv but, if you think i’m hands-off, she’s like, not even got hands. Hands not on this plane. We did create the subreddit together (IIRC I came up with the name and she was like “omg that needs to be a subreddit” and then, all of a sudden, it was) but I’m the one who pretty much runs it. I don’t think she’d take issue with me saying that. She’s too busy playing runescape and smoking weed anyway lmao So, given the general results, I will look at bringing more mods on. I’ll probably pull from people I know first, and if that doesn’t work, may open up applications later. If this happens you’ll all know about it. I’ll address some of the comments at the very end. Your concerns are not going unnoticed!
THOUGHTS ON RESEARCHERS 459/467
https://imgur.com/Px4XqGQ Another very similar score, but this time the most frequent response by far is a 10. Average score is 7.84 This one was kinda important for me. I made the decision to allow researchers to post their surveys here. Full disclosure, when researchers come to me in modmail, my key concern is that they’ve followed all ethical procedures. So far, every single one has been done through a university in an official capacity, which means they have to prove they’ve gone through the ethics of their work and it’s been approved before they can even start researching. Whenever I’ve checked them out they seem completely fine, and I’ve so far not received any complaints, which makes me feel good. I personally believe research is incredibly important for us to understand ourselves, as well as other people. I’m obviously biased as hell here because I’m a social sciences student but the whole reason I’m interested in this field is the benefits I believe it can bring to us. So if it’s cool with you all, I’m going to take this result as support for research posts. For now I don’t foresee any issues with frequency but we’ll revisit this if that becomes a problem. I’d like to give you all a sincere thank you for your positive reception to these posts <3
SHOULD WE BAN TERFS OR TRANSMEDICALISTS? 461/467
This question specified “regardless of rulebreaking”, meaning should they be banned on sight if they say they identify as either a TERF or a transmedicalist. I also meant if they posted in TERF or transmedicalist subreddits, but I didn’t specify this, so I won’t use that in my analysis of this data. https://imgur.com/o1fevKC Other responses
Allow them only if they don't say anything transphobic on me_irlgbt
ban 'em when they post inflammatory stuff to bait responses
allow transmeds to flair their posts/create separate sub
only ban Transmedicalists if they’re being dicks about it
don't know enough about transmedicalists to say
Ban transmedicalists, do not ban TERFs
Definitely ban TERFs, I just don't really know much about trans medicalists, so I feel weird making a definitive statement about them.
Definitely ban TERFs. I’m neutral on transmedicalists
Forum should not be allowed to become a hostile environment. They can easily do that.
I don't know the context behind transmedicalists but if they're anything like terfs then yes ban them
I think a distinction must be made between hate and ignorance. Obvious hate should naturally be answered with a ban, but rule-breaking content arising from possible ignorance should be met with a removal, private warning and, most importantly, directing the poster toward resources to educate themselves.
I think there is more ground to talk with transmedicalists but that I would prefer not to deal with them. TERFs should be banned regardless of circumstance.
I’m not sure how i feel about just “banning” people but i disagree with them both
if being mean
If making people uncomfortable
If they are strongly voicing there options, even in other sub, that may be harmful.
Keep them on a shorter leash
Maybe? Or at least make posting that stuff against the rules
Only ban when breaking rules, but dismissing trans women & gnc/nb trans peeps should be against the rules
Only if they are putting forth their beliefs in a way to claim that people are not valid.
Still don't know anything about the transmedicalists but ban the terfs
TERFs have no rights and should go. Transmedicalists are... Kinda difficult? I used to consider myself trans and sorta get where they're coming from. I think it's just a generational issue? I don't think they should be banned outright, like TERFs should, but it should be made very clear that MeIRLGBT isn't the place to discuss that
Yeah, but only if you are sure they are terfs/transmed
yes, because they're harmful to trans communities and this subreddit should be safe.
Again, a generally anti-terf attitude, which is expected from previous questions. Once again, this is mostly to inform my moderation style. I am hesitant to ban people because I don’t want to be seen as a powertripping mod out to get everybody. These results, alongside the other terf/transmed ones, are kind of encouraging me to take a slightly heavier hand than I currently am. Again, some specific responses at the end!
WHAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE MORE OF? 98/467
This was complete free-entry, so I’ve gone in and grouped a bunch of the responses together.
Ace content: 3
Bi content: 4
Positivity/wholesome shit: 4
Trans content: 5
Commie shit: 2
Garlic bread: 2
That Gay Shit: 13
More activity in general: 5
allowing different titles
mod posts for awareness days (ie bisexuality awareness, TDOR, etc)
more response to reports
peace, love, and understanding
a monthly challenge to make themed memes
clarity as to what this neat little subreddit is about
Other responses were generally just “nothin, we good”, so that makes up the rest of the responses. Further answers at the end!
[i removed these comments for being transphobic lol]: 2
That Het Shit: 3
That Gay Shit
non-meme content: 6
Christmas decorations in October
self-deprecating humour: 2
equating tops/bottoms to personality or body types. this isn't yoai it's real life, and i know this is more of an overall issue with the gay community but it's pretty prevalent on this sub
i hope the rest of your day is the best of your day.
Okay to the people who said they want less of themselves and less gay shit you are in the wholeass wrong place are you okay Reposts seem to be a common issue. Could you lot do me a favour and post in the comments what you think are common reposts? I come on and browse the sub but I really rely on things you report to me, so I don’t always see common reposts. As far as specific content you don’t like, I’m afraid that’s gonna be a self-directed thing for yall. Downvote the non-rulebreaking content you don’t like and hopefully people will get the message! Lol @ the one person who said less surveys. Ur in one. Cant stop wont stop x
ANYTHING ELSE TO ADD?
ily, thank you, etc
This shit sweet as hell thank you for taking the time to add it in at the end ily
“all my answers need the addendum of “I am an idiot, and there are many things I don’t know”
Hi. how u doin
I am a gay
Absolutely. We love that for you.
[bee movie script]
Hi. no. dislike.
Comrades! You have nothing to lose but your chains!
There’s like 5 of you that said this and i love it
imagine being sega and not working towards creating and publishing a new jet set radio future game; absolutely criminal
Imagine being sega. Can’t relate
Perhaps a link in the side bar we can click to escape the subreddit, especially on mobile if possible.
Honestly not a bad idea. I’ll look into this.
Please just add the QA to the name. It’s 2 letters
I’m sorry, i can’t change the subreddit name. I’ll add it to the sidebar tho <3
Sexual attraction is bourgeois
Idk what this means but it is now one of the central tenets of my faith
Thanks for all the “other” options
You’re welcome it made like, 100x more work for me, but i kinda like that we have a smidge of qualitative data alongside all the quantitative shit.
Thanks for letting me participate despite my non LGBT status
Thanks for being chill!
You people need to calm down. I can sense that this energy primarily comes from North America, so I will explain. The level of discrimination and the lack of basic human rights are so extreme, people cannot stand it anymore even if they are not fully aware of these subconscious vibes, so they need to pull extremely in the other direction to make up for this. And hence you have this kind of subculture that emerges as result. The problem is that, you people are as bad as the other end of the problem because you're as extreme, and it translates into over the top aggression and people so insanely touchy they see an attack in absolutely everything, even if they are not being attacked. Become aware of these energies, and chill.
Gurl are you like okay? Do you need a lie down? Some fruit snacks? Everything okay at home?
“I think we need mods who do more than just let people police the sub themselves. We may only need a new mod if the current mods don’t change how they mod. Respond to reports is what I’m saying (I don’t see almost any removed comments ever)”
I’m gonna hold my hands up here, I have generally sucked ass at this. I rely almost completely on you lot reporting things to me, but for the longest time I had a big ol mod queue that was just overwhelming to look at. I’ve made changes to this in the past few weeks, including *expanding automod scripts. Automod now deletes certain slurs automatically, as well as any comment that might be mentioning or encouraging suicide. This is a big help because obviously trolls will rely on their old faithful slurs. I was hesitant to do this because I think we all have a right to slur reclamation, but I think the benefits outweigh that right now. *I got a fancy new mod plugin! It’s called toolbox, and basically just tells me whenever a new post is made so I can approve it or not, and it tells me when I have new reports. It’s made the whole experience less stressful *I spent a day addressing all the shit in the queue. The subreddit used to be like, full anarchy, so there were reports going back 2 years. Again, I take responsibility for that. I’ve been a shitty mod and I am addressing that. I hope these changes help address those concerns.
” i think a little more mod participation would be cool. just seeing admins in comments laughing and joking along with us, and sharing in the memes”
I’ve honestly been thinking about this comment for a while. I try to avoid posting here because, again, I’ve seen a lot of criticism of mods who participate too much in their own subs, especially when they distinguish their posts. I don’t wanna look like a dick, yknow? But I like this comment and I’m gonna try and just hang out with you lot more <3
Mod posts for awareness days (ie bisexuality awareness, TDOR, etc)
I kinda think this idea slaps. Does anybody have a calendar of important LGBT dates? I think we could tie this into the other comment about challenges for themed memes, where appropriate.
Clarity as to what this neat little subreddit is about
Me_irlgbt is a queer shitposting subreddit. It’s generally for memes and queer fuckery. Not selfies. That’s about it.
Okay, so, the reason I’m not going to do this is because I feel that if I post a thread for support, I then have a duty of care to anybody who posts in it. I do not have the capability, time, or knowledge to provide that duty of care, so I feel it would be strongly unethical to do this, regardless of how good the intentions are. I think it’s a well-meaning idea, I just wanted to clarify why I’m personally not comfortable with it.
Not everybody in me_irlgbt is gay. Can we have more inclusivity?
When I use “gay” on this subreddit, especially if I’m referring to the general mass of users, I wholeheartedly mean it in a community way. Like, “we, the gays” as contrapoints once said. You are welcome here. This isn’t the only response along these lines, so I will keep it in mind when making changes. And we’re done! Holy shit that was a long post. This has taken me 6 days to edit. Again, reiterating from the top, I’m not an adept researchedata analyst, so I’m sure many people could’ve done a MUCH better job looking at these results, but I think this will do for now. Thank you so much to everybody who responded. It’s been really interesting for me to have a look at this, and pretty cool to get to fuck around with all this data. Thank you ilysm <3
The population on this subreddit trends young, mostly 18-24
Most people live in the US
Most people are white
We have slightly more male-identified people than female, but not significantly so.
Roughly a quarter of respondents are trans-identified.
Most people use she/her or he/him pronouns. Around 18% use they/them, with the rest “other” or neopronouns.
About 60% of the people here identify as bisexual or pansexual, 17% lesbian, 16% gay, 17% asexual. These responses do overlap with many people using multiple labels for themselves.
mostly high school or college educated, which makes sense with the age demographics
overwhelmingly left-leaning politically
generally positive feelings towards the subreddit/mods
mostly atheist/agnostic religious views
74% of respondents are single/not in a relationship.
88% of respondents do not like TERFs
about half of respondents do not like transmedicalists, but 28% are neutral
Alright you dicks. This is gonna get long. (But it did go GOLD! thanks anon!) https://i.imgur.com/ae9pwNF.png (putting this here to change the cover photo.) I've seen a lot of posts asking how to make your fallout playthrough more akin to a "Metro" experience, or a "STALKER" experience. Well guess what...this guy is here, he's bored enough at work, he just bought a new keyboard, and hes fuckin ready to help you get your shit together. and just like some guy from the desert said...I never said it would be easy, I just said it would be worth it...and stable. we are really going for stability here After playing STALKER COC periodically over the years and most recently for like 4 months straight (and even making a mod for it (shameless plug) https://www.moddb.com/mods/call-of-chernobyl/addons/stcop-soundoverhaul) I have walked over every single inch of that game and I can say that it not only kicks ass...but that compared to a Bethesda game it has all the bugs with half the content. I've done EVERYTHING in that game and most of its mods. And if you're like me, you're always looking for more people to murder, more loot, more guns, and more fun to partake in while wandering a post apocalyptic wasteland. Guess what, Fallout has a shitload of content, so you're in luck. Plus it's a great candidate for uploading an unholy amount of mods while maintaining relative stability. Which is exactly the right kind of environment we need for our particular crusade and the reason I installed it in the first place. What Fallout 4 lacks is direction. It's like a 50's satire/post apocalyptic/shooterpg/serious/cartoony/silly/scary...thing. its all over the fuckin place. WE are going to give this game some direction NOW before we go any further. I dont want to hear anyone bitching about it not being exactly like STALKER. of course its not. Theyre different games, that's why you paid money for each of them (hopefully). One of them is a russian sci-fi-horror masterpiece, the other is a quasi-50's nuclear survival mix up. Theyre inherently different. One of them is russian weird, the other one is 50's kitsch. and this is also personal preference for what *I* like (but i think you'll genuinely enjoy, and that you can tailor to your own tastes). There are a number of mods that you can add to get it more like stalker (armor, weapons blah blah)...im not going for stalker recreation...im going for that FEELING you get when you play stalker. that FEELING like you need to shower and write home to babushka. So you're going to have to look past some of this shit and really focus on gameplay, or keep in mind that specific mods in specific categories can be swapped out to your liking. Dig it? Good. First fuckin things first. We need to look at what makes Metro and STALKER the experiences they are (you can skip this shit if you want, but for me it was important to look at when making my game play the way I wanted it to). ATMOSPHERE: STALKER is absolutely DRIPPING with specific things. It's more than "cheeki breeki" memes, russian pseudo-realism, and an unstable game engine ripe with funky glitches and crashes (in that respect its identical to Fallout). If STALKER nails one thing right... its DREAD. It makes you feel the urge to explore but making you apprehensive to do so. You want to walk outside and see what kind of rad shit is out there, but you are constantly checking your inventory to make sure you have what you need, and always looking over your shoulder for those fucking snorks. Its a masterclass in uncomfortable tension immersion. Everything about it is there to pull you in and make you feel like toasted shit. The music, the tone, the tonemapping, the atmosphere (find me a review that doesn't have the word "atmosphere" in it of STALKER and I'll...do nothing but be surprised) buuut, it also makes you curious as to what's out there in the world. I still feel like im discovering new shit whenever I play COC, and I think that compelling mix of dread horror, exploration and a touch of non hampering realism mixes well into something fun and digestable. There's no faux-rpg nonsense, theres no "you cant fight this guy because you aren't the right level" bullshit. It's a matter of "do you have enough food, enough anti-rad, and enough firepower to not only make it there, but wade through the shit, and then have enough room in your backpack to haul back the loot?" Never once have I felt like it was hampered by any of it's mechanics. SO, the things we need to pay attention to in recreating this in a different game: --ATMOSPHERE - the main contributors to this iconic tension are the sounds (music is the biggest one by far...the music in STALKER set the entire tone, creaks, groans) the ominous fear of attack at any second, the look of the game (drop shadows from flashlights (in fallout if you want this add "bAllowShadowcasterNPCLights = 1" in your mygames\fallout4\Fallout4Prefs.ini), the tonemap (very grey and desolate) the rusted burnt out industrial areas, brutalist buildings etc) and the feeling of the unknown. that game is really interesting because you wanna know what the fuck else is out there. even when you think you've seen it all there is some weird curve balls thrown at you and it's a world you've never seen before (for the record...that last one is the hardest to recreate and until someone (im working on it) makes an anomaly mod for Fallout 4 it is something you're going to have to live without). --GAMEPLAY - STALKER has unique gameplay where it's like a stripped down shooter, a stripped down RPG, an experiment in horror, and at the time...focused entirely on keeping you immersed. The vanilla gunplay is okay, the non-human enemies look ridiculous minus the bloodsuckers, and the snorks (snorks look dumb, but i'd be damned if they don't scare my britches off every fucking time i see one). The vanilla weapons aren't great, the firefights are okay. Buuuut. again, that feeling of wanting to explore. that feeling of wanting to get out there and see what the fuck is going on...thats powerful. because there are some games that are ripe with stuff to do, but i dont really want to go out and do it. im like "meh". but the discovery feeling is really important in STALKER, and it's also a feeling of overcoming your own fear, and the relief you get when you get back to your stash like "ah fuck...i made it". you should dread going outside your door and relish when you get back. You are also against enemies that are scary. They can be killed, there really arent any that are particularly hard to kill, but they pose a challenge in the way they kill you, or the circumstances you encounter them in (enemies that you need to run away from. well you just ran into one in a small room and now you're getting jacked). Also the gunplay feels relatively realistic as far as damage. Fallout is a bulletsponge nightmare. Stalker is headshots do work...so we are going to need to overhaul the damage system TWO MAIN THINGS WE NEED TO RECREATE FROM STALKER - ATMOSPHERE & UNIQUE GAMEPLA Now, Metro has arguably some of the best gameplay mechanics of any AAA first person shooter. they took the cliches and flipped them on their ass. The need to plan your gear as IMPERATIVE. The environment makes a difference on what you carry. The modularity of weapons plays a huge role in how you approach a situation and how you deploy. if you know you're going to be getting in long range skirmishes you loadout. if youre heading into a linear part...well buddy youll be packing a shotgun. they made ammo hard to get, they made health kits a strategy, and they made your gear and environment play in a way that if you leave your base without being properly prepared you WILL NOT succeed. Period. not to mention it does have many of the qualities listed in STALKER. but for me...STALKER works better. Metro is amazing, but STALKER feels more organic in atmosphere. but METRO feels more proper in gameplay. Also...Metro Exodus is a serious contendor for one of the best looking video games ever made. I was absolutely blown the fuck away while playing it. and this fidelity is possible depending on your hardware within Fallout. Not exact...but you can treat yourself to a graphical wonderland depending on your taste and specs. it is possible. so things we need to recreate: --GRAPHICS - What fallout does have is fluid visuals...unfortunately they are ugly, they look decidedly last gen, and they are unoptimized. its undeniable. but they do fit well together. Metro is also very fluid looking, it looks like ONE guy made the entire game in the same art style. its gorgeous. not to mention the fidelity is breathtaking. you can look at a texture through a scope and it still looks good. you can open a door and the entire room looks solid, fleshed out, and tended to. When we are modding the visuals of a game we dont want conflicting art styles in our texture packs, we dont want an ENB on there that clashes with the base game, and more than anything we want the entire game to elicit a mood. We want to feel immersed in a post apocalyptic wasteland that is actually serious...not a kitschy cartoon. If you enjoy that fine...but for me...i want dismal. I want heavy. --GAMEPLAY - Metro has one of my favorite things that i've touched on multiple times throughout this long ass tirade...you need to plan ahead. if you leave without being equipped, if you're lopsided in your equipment (too much ammo not enough health kits, or not enough filters) you will fail...or at the very last have a hard fuckin time accomplishing your goals. BUT it never reaches the point of impossible, and it never hampers the gameplay. It's not like Tarkov where any mistake absolutely beats the shit out of you. we still want to have fun. Not to mention the guns in Metro feel solid, they shoot hard, it feels like you're wrecking on shit when you're fighting...and fortunately for us Fallout 4 does have excellent base shooting mechanics...we just need to mitigate the bulletsponge and be sure that we are making both parties lethal. you want to question whether you should engage a target, or whether you should sneak by. --STORY - Sorry buddy...Metro Exodus had a killer story and you're stuck trying to find your ugly ass baby. Not much we can do about that. No Anna either...that russian minx. buuut, Curie is kinda similar and shes just a good person (robot?) all around, give her a shot. IN CONCLUSION: what we are looking to recreate is a highly atmospheric, lethal experience that looks great, plays great, runs great, and mimics the idea of a realistic, threatening, resource scarce, overwhelming nuclear wasteland as best as possible with minimal gear you may find laying around if shit hit the fan and you found yourself looting a body. to me that means real world tactical gear, real world weapons, survival options, scavenging and finding real world items. keep in mind I'm a huge military/gun/tactics nerd, so this might be a little tacticool for some...thats fine, but for me it really makes a great experience and I think you'll like it too. We are limited to specific parameters. again...no anomalies, no metro or stalker monsters, and no weird russian shit. but we can work with what we have, and while it wont be exact in every aspect...the feeling, mood, and experience is what we are looking to recreate here. YOU CAN SKIP THAT OTHER SHIT AND START READING HERE: Recommended Mod Manager - Vortex. (but really, mod how you like. im not here to judge.) Disclaimer: if you break your game...well. reinstall it. This setup has worked for me for over a month now solid. If it doesn't work for you or it doesn't fit your style, either add mods that fit your style, delete mods that dont, or dont follow this guide. TWO THINGS:
DONT ENABLE MODS UNTIL YOU ARE OUT OF THE VAULT (use "start me up")
CHECK ALL REQUIREMENTS BEFORE INSTALLING MODS. IF SOMETHING DOESN'T WORK CHANCES ARE YOU MISSED ONE ITS DEPENDENCIES.
** WEAPONS : (What kind of STALKER playthrough would you have if you didn't have a good arsenal? also...this is in no way exhaustive, you can add any weapons mods you want. im just sticking in the basics; rifles, snipers, smgs, shotguns. find whatever you want and throw them in, but these are guaranteed to not conflict or mess with game.) AK-400 - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/36873) AK-400 WEAPON REPLACER (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/38602) AK47/74 MODULAR MOD (this is on GUNNETWORK.org because it does have ripped assets from Tarkov, but the work is incredible, and uses the AK400 as a base, but adds way more customization options and more real world weapons. its a must if you're a gun nut) RU556 M4 - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/22536 / https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/35712) RU556 WEAPON REPLACER - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/33409) Winchester 1987 Shotgun - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/33313?tab=description) MPX (great submachine gun) - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/34628) L96A1 (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/38554) (for the record, i dont use this mod anymore...the weapon is SEVERELY underpowered, and i think sniper rifles should be 120-150 HP per shot. if you know CK you can bump this up, but i dont use this mod, i just use the stock in game sniper rifle because its rad.) Browning Hi-power pistol (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/20143) Browning hi-Power replacer (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/33789) OPTIONAL WEAPON MODS Lowered Weapons with a button (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/6364) Shell Rain (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/870) (not needed but for no performance impact...get it) Muzzle Flash Shadow (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/2571/?tab=2&navtag=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.nexusmods.com%2Ffallout4%2Fajax%2Fmodfiles%2F%3Fid%3D2571&pUp=1) Basic Ammo Crafting (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/30048) (not needed, but for me...its a must.) - NOTE: There are holster mods for all of these weapons. You can find them if you want them. They're not needed hence not included for brevity (brevity...HA!) ** APPEARANCE : (This will cover things like player armor, enemy armor, and NPC appearance for all your dress up needs). AWKCR - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/6091/) (MOST mods need this, download it) ArmorSmith Extended - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/2228) (again...used by tons of mods) PLAYER APPEARANCE // High Speed Caps - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/31178) (hats...cool ones) CROSS Headset - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/10131) (you dont want to go deaf buddy) BF4 Armor pack (cant link this, its on gunnetwork.org, go find it. looks amazing). Modular Plate Carrier (cant link this one either, found on gunnetwork.org. search "asnavaro plate carrier") NPC APPEARANCE // Militarized Minutemen (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/29853) (makes them not lame looking) Raiders in Rags (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/27176) (makes raiders anywhere from normal people just looking for a bite, to rust covered hard asses) The Mercenary (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/20088) (adds a bunch of sweet armor for NPCs and character) BF4 brotherhood of steel replacer (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1HTHJ7S_RTch8y-RptUfY67_b66JL4GmK/view?usp=sharing) (requires BF4 armor pack) GHOULS // (2 mods...choose which one you prefer) D.E.C.A.Y. https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/2500 (overhauls them completely with added shit. I like keeping my load as light as possible...sort of. So i use the next one, but this mod is GREAT). More Feral Ghouls (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/36653) (Adds more variety to the ghouls but keeps them fast and creepy. Light, easy, performance friendly.) ** GAMEPLAY : (these will change things in game that will divert the feeling from Fallout to a more...not fallout feel. also just nice shit to have.) ABSOLUTE MUST HAVE - Better Locational Damage - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/3815) (I left this completely stock how it came and have had ZERO issues. it runs perfectly, and completely mitigates the bulletsponge that fallout 4 is famous for, turning this game from an "RPG" into a satisfying shooter). Monsters to Raiders - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17678) (check whatever you want during the installer...i personally turned off all the fucking flies, and weird monsters because fuck those fucking things, why wont you die when i shoot you with a shotgun 12 times, why are you like this, what kind of sick joke are you playing, who programmed this, oh my GOD im going to kill someone, and pretty much only left super mutants, synths, deathclaws, and humans of course) Endless Warfare - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17626) (this one took a fat minute to get configured right, and while I cant share my setup with you if you do use it be sure to change the Randomness of the spawnspots, otherwise youll have 20 guys spawning at random places all over the map fighting each other...not really what you're going for. It adds just the perfect amount of random fights, random ambushes, and most importantly...performance. it turns a simple walk to the corner for some aluminum cans into a paranoid ridden pain in the ass, keeping you on your toes the entire time.) Survival Options - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/14650) (this mod makes it so playing on survival mode, which you should be doing, is less of a pain in the ass...allowing saves during cell changes, sleeping, eating, whatever. Enabling fast travel, etc. Set it up however you want. but its a must. set it up according to your tastes). Start Me Up - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/18946) (lets you skip the intro). Also mentioned by Nebuchadnezzer2 but never played with - Fast Start (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/29227 ) Skip the intro) Gas Masks of the Wasteland - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/17491) (seriously a game changer. I do not use the weather mod included, i use NAC which is included below, but this adds a really important mechanic on scarce resources, and really makes preparing all the more important. I have it set to only run when it rains/rad storms. All the time isnt really my cup of tea.) ** GRAPHICS : (These will make your game gorgeous) TEXTURE PACKS. Enhanced Blood Textures - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/212/) (performance friendly). Werefull's realistic blood (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/31646) (makes the blood less corny.) FlaconOil Retexture pack - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/3747?tab=description) (I run the 2k, looks fantastic). Valius Texture pack - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/318) (i run the 4k pack because it is breathtakingly on point) Vivid Fallout texture pack. - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/25714) (2k all day) -- Other visual overhauls. Enhanced Lights and FX - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/13596) (makes interiors gorgeous, dark and dynamic. Taxing.) Boston FPS Fix (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/26286) (it...fixes...the fps in boston). NAC weather mod - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/7657) (this adds more weather but also flattens the image to a more realistic and dry look. An INSANE amount of options to tailor it to your experience. Darker Nights, Darker interiors, sscreen effects...it is hard to get down right, but once youve got it set it really can facelift your entire game. It can look a little pale, recommend coupling with a good ENB. (i will include a link to my personal setting that I think looks really nice. Desolate but realistic...its not too washed out, but also not too colorful. I think its got a great look and ran on a 660 FTW with SSAO turned off (since then has been turned on and tuned. it is the one included with NAC and i take no credit whatsoever. its simply my preset files). ENB - choose whichever you like. if you are interested you can use my preset included below (edited NAC preset, i take no credit) BUT YOU WILL NEED TO DOWNLOAD THE ENB BINARIES FROM (http://enbdev.com/mod_fallout4_v0385.htm) AND INSTALL THEM FIRST. Pip-Boy Flashlight - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/10840) ( as far as I'm concerned one of the defining features of STALKER when i first played it was the drop shadow from the flashlight. it absolutely blew my mind and how realistic it looked and to this day adds depth to scenes that some games still havent achieved. For a STALKER playthrough this is an absolute must have. relatively performance friendly too. BE SURE TO ENABLE SHADOWS. (also, if you know anything about CK you can change weapon lights to spotlights with shadows, completely changing the visuals of the game too, its super easy if you dare)) Honorable Mentions: FO4 Enhanced Color Correction (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/5060) (this mod is an absolute win as far as I'm concerned. He corrected the colors of the game with ZERO performance loss and did it perfectly. It deepens the scenes and really touches up every shortcoming from the vanilla game with default shaders. IF YOU ARE RUNNING AN OLDER CARD (GTX 660 or below) THIS PACK IS A MUST. If you want a great looking game that runs well with lower specs avoid ENBs and give this a try. You'll be pleasantly surprised.) Dynamic Lights and Shadows (VERY VERY TAXING. USE WITH CAUTION) - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/34572) (Makes shit look absolutely bananas outside) NOTE: People like to run grass mods. I dont run any. The performance impact even on halfway decent rigs like mine is just unacceptable for the looks it gives me. I think the default foliage is fine, its a little sparse but for consistent performance I've had to overlook foliage mods. If you want one, search for it. See performance notes below for possible issues when installing them. If any readers have any suggestions that dont break precombines please let me know.) LAST ONE IMMERSION: (These will make sure you never want to go outside again.) MUSIC MODS (what would STALKER be without the music? seriously). STALKER music mod - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/36844/) (this ones good but for some reason it never seemed to properly fit in the Fallout universe for me. So...i ended up using this next mod) Spaceout Ambient Music Overhaul - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/959/?)) (this mod just slays. the music works PERFECTLY for the fallout universe. interiors are creepier. Night time is scary as fuck. Daytime has an epic melancholic feel to them. This mod was exactly what I was looking for in a STALKER-esque music mod. You should give it a shot. If you dont love it, head back to the STALKER music mod, no harm no foul.) HUD MODS (the Fallout 4 HUD is in your face like Vin Diesel. Lets fix that.) HUD Framework - (you need this to run gas masks anyway, just be sure to install it before the next one). DEF_UI - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/10654) (lets you edit your own HUD, just follow the instructions. if you're not into that I'm going to include my preset with my ENB setup as well (again...all credit to the authors, these are just my edits.) if youre not into THAT, then check the requirements list on DEF_UI's nexus page and you can see the infinite list of other peoples presets. Find one that fits your taste.) No More Cash Register Noise - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/100/?)) (seriously who thought hearing that every 5 seconds was a good idea? NOTE, i think disabling the widget that pops up during XP gain in DEF_UI will make that noise stop. I dont have this mod installed anymore and my HUD turns off that widget...so maybe? Give it a shot on your own setup.) Shut The Followers Up - (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/24590) (turned my experience of having someone follow me around just chatty kathy as fuck, acting like nothing was wrong during our disease ridden excursion through a desolate nightmare, with NPC firefights plagued by supposed to be hardcore ass wasteland badasses saying absolutely ridiculous shit mid fight, to a much more realistic experience composed of fights being a surprise without anyone shouting their intentions straight at their enemies. This mod is a MUST if you like followers or want more immersive combat. It really ratchets up the intensity with such a simple change.) Realistic Death Physics (https://www.nexusmods.com/fallout4/mods/4371?tab=description) (no longer will people fly across the room when you shoot em.) LOAD ORDER FROM TOP TO BOTTOM (pro-tip, if you want this mod order, simply install in this order with Vortex...not needed but you could run into potential conflicts if installed differently). (to be honest, i've only had to move around a few mods for this to work properly, namely pip-boy flashlight) - Pip-Boy Flashlight Flacanoil texture pack Valius textures Werefulls Realistic Blood Winchester 1897 Shut the followers up Survival options. enhanced lights and fx shell rain realistic death phyysics raiders in rags ru556 armory project no combat music (added by BLD) cross uni headset better locational damage basic ammo crafting Gas Masks of the Wasteland. BOS BF4 armor replacer (found on gunnetwork) BF4 armor pack (found on gunnetwork) Button lowered weapons AK400 High Speed Caps (hats mod) mercenary militarized minutemen modular AK (found on gunnetwork) more ghouls (called ghoulblood in vortex) RU556 monsters to raiders plugins (theres like 9 of em) BLD level lists MPX weapon Better locational damage Armorsmith extended enhanced blood vivid fallout NAC endless warfare boston fps fix everything else related to AWKCR (there are multiple plugins that i skipped over, but they are arbitrarily stacked in the load order, and if not listed they wont cause issues if they are loaded differently. this list is simply provided as a template if issues do arise in your game and you want to know where to put something. it is not an end all be all optimized list. my shit works good, so i included it.) THINGS TO LOOK OUT FOR. Look, this list isnt going to satisfy everyone. You're inevitably going to go down the mod rabbit hole just sticking completely useless shit in your game. That's half the fun. So heres some advice. If you need to know anything about modding Fallout 4 is that it'll make you think it's running well...when you really just broke some shit that you'll run into six hours from now which either demands reloading an old save, or reinstalling the game. That said I'm going to make your life easier with some quick tips. - AVOID ANYTHING THAT BREAKS PREVIS/PRECOMBINES. Dont know what they are? Tough shit. Don't touch em. Mods that edit exterior cells (that dont include rebuilt precombines) will break them, and they will make your game run like shit. Bethesda's half assed optimization system is hanging on by a thin thin thread, and as soon as its broken its reload or live with it. Ask my 128 hour character how he felt about returning back to a 12 hour save because I broke downtown Boston and had to reinstall the game. He wasn't very excited. In fact his is now driving a bro-dozer blaming his problems on poor people like a complete idiot. Confederate flag sticking out of the bed, he hasn't shaved in weeks, smoking pyramids, its a disaster. RULE OF THUMB FOR THESE. Stay away from exterior environment mods, flora overhaul mods and scrap mods (which sucks because i really like having a clean house...in game). Texture packs and shit are fine, but mods that edit cells will degrade your performance unless you know how to rebuild precombines...which some people do but odds are you're not one of them. Things that change the size of grass aren't a big deal...but ReGrowth, Spring Cleaning, and shit like that? yeah. Messed my game right up. OVERLY TAXING ENB'S. Look, you want your game to look good. I get that. But there are ENB's out there that have plenty of useless shit enabled that does nothing but bog your system down. Poorly optimized DOF shaders, SSIL with the quality set to high that isnt turned on enough to even be noticable. shit like that. You can make a performance friendly post processing preset that fits your style very easily...and you can probably find someone who did it for you, better than you can, that actually runs well. Avoid shitty ENBs, and be sure to check off any features that don't make a noticeable difference, or that are too taxing for your setup. nothing wrong with dialing shit back for the sweet 60 CONCERNING TEXTURES It is imperative that you texture you game according to your specs. if you have less than 8GB VRAM try all 2k textures, if you have less use 1k. prioritize what you look at the most. I personally want anything im really close to to look great, therefore I made sure the packs that affected interiors were higher resolution. 2k for the outdoors stuff. The work these guys put into their packs is insane...and to honest they all look great on any resolution. So just work around your specs and youll make a great looking game. my card is 8GB, and these packs coupled with the armor packs and stuff equals out to be about 7.6 gigs of shit on my card. and i rarely experience stutter (this game isnt perfect...and does stutter no matter how clean your mod list is), so if you have a 1070 or up, these texture packs are the perfect combination of looks and performance.) NVIDIA USERS - have Geforce Experience optimize the game for you. It fixed some shadow shit for me and a few other things. I avoided it until like last week, and was pleasantly surprised at how well it made my game run. Once it optimized the game, I then went in and bumped some of the settings down, just because no matter what you're running, shadows in this game will beat your computer up. and for very little difference you can run them on medium and have great fps + visuals. AVOID FPS OVER 60 - The game breaks over a certain FPS. Do what you want, but mine is limited to 60 in my ENB. Zero issues. "but my monitorrrr", stop. This game is poorly made. Either work around it, or play something else. (here come the "i run it at 118 just fine!" people. good for you.) - FEEL FREE TO UNINSTALL AND REINSTALL SPECIFIC MODS AT WILL. Texture mods, Audio mods, small changes that are only loaded resources...swap em in and out at will. Heavier mods like Gas Masks, and NAC, be sure to follow their uninstall instructions. You can potentially break you game. I mean...i fuckin uninstall random shit it all the time, but im a moron. Don't be a moron like me. - MY SPECS (provided to compare whether you can run this setup...if you dont meet these simply turn down the graphically demanding mods and you should be fine.) I5-4670 3.4 ghz 16GB 10600 RAM Samsung Evo 860 500gb ASUS H87M Plus Some 550w PSU. Gigabyte G1 GTX 1070 8GB Custom Ducky One 2 Mini 60% Keyboard (not that its really important...i just want you to know that I have one, and that it is in fact amazing, and I dont even know what a ForkKnife is.) NOTE: I did not install the Unofficial Fallout 4 Patch. I am sure this mod list would work with it just fine, but it's been running so well since i had to revert to another save that I haven't installed it. but normally i recommend Unofficial Patches to everyone. If you have issues with the patch installed please let me know IN CONCLUSION - Fallout 4 is a fickle fickle...FICKLE asshole of a mistress, and thats even before you mod it. you will spend a lot of time tweaking an infinite number of things. Shadows mainly. You'll spend two weeks tweaking shadows. But if you take the time and mod your game responsibly you can have a completely different experience that runs smooth, caters to your taste, and gives you that excruciatingly ominous, foreboding, sketched out, melancholic, nightmare stricken feeling when you step into those STALKER boots, or when you pull down your METRO mask. It is possible. Just take it easy, install one mod at a time, make sure they activate, and as platitudinous as it is...have fun. It's not about the destination, its about the potentially frustrating ass journey. Right? Here is a link to my ENB preset (edited NAC. again, I take ZERO credit) https://www.mediafire.com/file/bf1qd0r4qlcsm2l/STALKER_MOD_FILES.zip/file Here is an obligatory Imgur album with screenshots of some sweet shit (please dont ask where I got the mods, its all contained in that 32222 character count wall of text - https://imgur.com/a/lgFlWJw reupload these anywhere, do whatever you want with them. I do not care. punk rock).
The Basic Assembler needs an additional port. Small Grid version of this Basic stuff would be awesome too.
Hydrogen engines and in fact all power sources need some adjustments. Hydrogen in general needs work for power and thrusters. They are all to inefficient. Not so much output, but how much ice it takes to run everything.
they create a better gameplay loop
The hydrogen engine feels like it only has two niches:
- night-time base power on a base outside an atmospheric planet until uranium is available, and:
- charging batteries on aircraft in long distance flights which aren't using nuclear energy for some reason.
Batteries have enough energy density to not bother using engines on most rovers(except potentially mobile bases with easy access to ice), while hydrogen engines have a very bad power density that prevents them from being used as a main power source for most aicraft - especially with the added construction component requirement on atmospheric thrusters.
Hydrogen engines lose out to batteries on energy storage density by volume, and very nearly also on mass. My personal balancing would place small grid hydrogen engines around 2 MW(moving power-to-mass and power density to roughly the level an aircraft engine would probably achieve in the 1960s if they weren't replaced by gas turbines or jet engines) and increase their energy efficiency to 20kJ/L.
The hydrogen engine would make more sense as a fusion reactor.
Make atomo thrusters more expensive. A jet and a car has a huge price gap in real life. :-)
Balance on inventory size is necessary, especially the survival kit.
Need smaller hydro and oxygen tanks for small grid, like 1x2, and a small grid hydro engine. Thanks for small battery!!
They are a nice little step toward more survival gameplay, but it's still a tiny effort. There are things that are as cheap, or cheaper to implement that would add more content for the player. One of the cheapest example is the simple concrete blocks, that would give a role to gravel and a cheap construction material for atmosphere building.
Love 'em and the progression they provide to the game
we need more blocks, and a cheaper component like circuit boards that uses copper
The block models all look good. I especially like the basic assembler. I do wish the hydrogen engine was a little more efficient, but I didn't test it extensively.
A step in the right direction
Wind turbines are awesome. Small batteries are nice to have paired with hydrogen engine since power is required to run conveyor to get gas to engine if blackout occurs. Small battery is easy to put anywhere in off-state, to turn on later. Nice to have cheap block for health regeneration, however if it is damaged we cannot refine silver for medical components until the large refinery is built.
The H2 Engine is too hungry preventing h2 resupply while it was on
Does the hydro engine run all the time? Can it be set to run only when needed to recharge batteries or power the grid? Does it need a hydrogen tank or only an h2o2 generator?
We need a lot more variety
Hydrogen engine depends purely on if you land real close to a ice lake.
Turbines feel like they are too strong, infinite, more power tahn solar and even useable on a moon like Titan
Survival kit has too much functionality, serving too many roles although it is painfully slow to build anything so that helps to balance it. Hydrogen engine is interesting but the hydrogen tanks as far too large to really make use of it on rovers or fighters where it would be ideal. Wind turbines should be generating far more power than solar panels. We need more armour block shapes and weapon options- having to rely on mod packs that break constantly is getting rather tiresome, this game will live or die after final release based on how rich the vanilla game is, and right now it is sorely lacking in a few key areas...
Addition of Hydrogen Generators should coincide with the addition of smaller hydrogen tanks
They need more explanation in-game. All blocks should have an info tab, like giving the basic refinery a list of things it can refine.
Hydrogen engine needs rebalanced, not very useful as it stands
Hydrogen engine ice consumption is to high to be usable. And it also tends to "steal" hydrogen from thrusters.
Progression tree comments
It needs more refinement, some is good but other elements of it make little sense.
A bit generic, but it does it's job.
Not sure, not bad, but also feels like something is missing. Can't tell though.
Not my thing. It’s too simple and I have no use for it. Been much better to have research instead of build this than build that. I’m glad I can shut it off.
good idea but restricts you a bit too much, couldn't build an ore detector before i built a drill
It should be toggleable clientside, not serverside.
Probably good for new players
Should be visually condensed
Easy to progress. Make it harder. Travell far to progress etc.
Blocks on drop should be unlocked. Tree needs better layout
I have an impression that new progression system only does delay first survival steps and has no other purpose.
In my opinion, unlocking conditions must be changed. Basic blocks must me unlocked from start. Advanced block blueprints (and maybe some uniques, more powerful) must be found in random PvE events (like Large Signals or Cargo ships), encouraging designing crafts for exploration and combat.
It felt like a first iteration of one tool in the tutorial area toolbelt. Once debuged and with more back and forth with the players, it could be a good tool for new player. But for medium advanced players (let's say 30+ hours), it feels a bit gimmicky right now. So, it depends on why it was designed for.
Could have a more in depth mechanism than just making the block needed in the tier.
It's early days yet. I can see where KSH are going with this and largely like the idea but have'nt really had chance to explore the feature fully.
There needs to be another layer to it like grind to learn, or a research tech. Possibly using the programmable block
More focused better flow
Needs a little more fleshing out, and some stuff doesn't make exact sense but works pretty well
Since I already knew what things were, it felt like an artificial gate. I'd be curious to know if it actually helps new players learn more smoothly.
The idea is fine, but some of the dependencies are odd. I'm filling this out after the test has past so I don't have the G-menu to reference. Also, I did not get the text on-screen after building the small-grid equivalent to state that I had unlocked blocks. A player does not have the resources to build large-grid blocks early in game. For example, the beacon.
It clear how it's setup but when I tried to move around some parts of the new start ships I accidentally doomed myself (tried to move h2 and flight seats prevented control and power)
Progression should be more involved such as finding blueprints or grinding already existing ones
It seems like half a tree, it needs more tiers, more separation
Would work better with an actual research system. Right now its just an annoyance
its not a progression tree, no natural progression to be found. it just forces you into building things in a certain order. (keen just look at how minecraft handles this a million times better by using materials and places for progression)
The only downside is that you are forced to build a block that you dont need early on to get one that you might enjoy using early on
I feel it doesn't really change the game much, It honestly feels like it's not really there. I don't take away from the game, but it felt just like playing the game normally, except sometimes i'd have to weld a random block to unlock something.
Feels... useless. I end up building and grinding blocks just to unlock it. No real sense of progression
Seems very arbitrary- build random block to unlock a vaguely related/unrelated block. Progression system is best kept for training scenario worlds or a campaign/story mode where it would actually make sense.
It's ok, but it could get annoying
Useful for new players, but will be a option that will be turned off mostly as an experienced player.
Needs to be a bit more complex.
Cargo ship / random encounter comments
Sorry, I've always used the modded ones instead.
Haven't find any because I played an hour or so.
I like how they don’t broadcast their positions all the time. But we still don’t have planet based encounters. It’s a real shame mods have outdone keen on this aspect 1000% better. Works needs more life, not just random ships flying around. We need bases to find, and to defend against.
More of them, please.
Make them more like modular encounters
I saw some pop up on the hud but didn’t chase them down
Well I always play with Random Encounters mod on,, even on the public test. Reavers etc so didn´t try it out.
Please add pirate stations to spawn that we can attack, would like to take Initiative in later game
Encounters are too simple. Please add more missions and variations.
Those improvements were NOT ENOUGH. Not by a long, long, very long shot. A good first step in that direction would be to buy the work of Meridius_IX for example, incorporate it and deepen the NPC mechanics and AI, and expend NPC presence in potentially every zone of the game (planets, planet core, etc. the key word being potential, NPC placement when a word is started need randomization). For a company so linked to a commercial enterprise making and seeling pro AI, Space Engineers AI feels a lot like a late 80's game. More work is needed.
These are amazing. They need to be on planets as well otherwise there's literally no reason to stay on a planet.
They seem to attack bases on moon and crash down, which gives free resources.
Can we get some of these in planets, maybe?
I played on earth-like and haven't gotten to space yet...so no cargo ships/encounters or violence of any kind for me either :-( I had wolves turned on briefly, but ran out of ammo since I only start with 3 clips!
Cargo ships are far too rare and I found myself swarmed by raiding platforms and their drones
A player on our server found one. He enjoyed the interaction.
Non-hostile encounters could be more common, more ruins/abandoned bases on planets would be cool. Random distress signals could be used to have the player explore for them.
I hope they are improved in the future.
Would like to see those type of events take place planet side
New spawning system comments
Don't like the auto respawn much
dont really like not being able to select where you spawn
I joined a faction late game after playing MP solo for days. I logged off in my ship before bed and in the morning spawned at the faction base 2000 km away. Thankfully i had a gos waypoint and a good person jumped me back to my ship. Completely powered, no damage, medbay active. Fail
Like it on Single Player so you cant TP to planets etc.
I like new system, but most of time your base got offline raided.
You should only spawn near players in your faction, and the default should be farther away.
Makes the game a lot less boring, being so close to other people's stuff.
I don't play MP
Spawning near others is good for playing with friends but other players quickly go to piracy and looting which make starting fresh dangerous.
I would like a way, with a long cool down perhaps, to spawn at faction mates bases. To help them build or check out their creations.
We found it a bit hard to get our faction together when starting out
this system is so incredibly exploitable its not even funny. who though this was a good idea?! it completely ruins any and all PVP servers since offline protection is just not a thing and protection by hiding is impossible. the only way to protect against people spamming respawn to find your shit is to just QUIT
It's fun to spawn next to friends, I worry about spawning next to random people on public servers
It's kinda neat to be spawned near others, but it makes it hard to isolate yourself from them if you want to.
After spawning on Mars, I did find the occasional enemy player starter ship and salvaged them. After traveling around For a few hours I realized that all Mars players were near my own spawn, and that the rest of the planet is basically barren. No reason to travel around since all resources and players are found in a rather small area.
While i can see the appeal in spawning near other players, i think it’s much better if we could choose to spawn with specific players. (So that you don’t have to find your friends, but also don’t spawn next to every other player)
I think there should clear user interface when respawning. And there needs to be a way to make sure you are not spawned near non faction players
Temperature mechanic comments
it is good, not something too great to micromanage but quite realistic
Seems to do nothing but drain your suit energy faster and kill you if you run out. It would be better if there was an in inventory recharge item like with Oxygen/Hydrogen bottles.
Could be improved, I mean, is meh, too simple needs more features
It works. Could be some mode negatives to staying in cold to long.
What does it even do?
Binary warm/freeze is NOT how you do a temperature mechanic.
I want a puffer coat
It's not explained in the game. If you want to explain it to players don't do it with text in form of good.bot, find an immersive way to introduce it to players.
It is a nice touch. Dont need further improvement.
It is barely documented, is it doing anything besides higher suit energy consumption?
The only change is that I need to visit cockpit more often. What the point? At the moment, engineers life worth nothing.
In my opinion, engineer's life should be more valuable than your crafts.
Again, nice first iteration on an idea. Needs to be fleshed out a bit (or in fact a lot, but I'm keeping my expectation in check ;) ).
I'd love to see this become a full-blown temperature system.
More mechanics to encourage pressured vessels would be great
I played on earth-like, so it wasn't that big of a deal. When I get to space it will be more dramatic I imagine and give another reason to pressurize spaces.
I get why it was added but the drain was too fast in some cases like early game mining felt brutal having to dive back out of a asteroid just to recharge. My suggestion would be to add a multiplier setting similar to assembler and refinery settings but for cold/hot power loss
I didn’t notice it or know what it effects.
It could be a bit more involved than just affecting how much energy your suit uses, applying the temperature mechanic to ships would be nice.
It needs way more depth in how it works, a better indicator
It does add more of a challange, but it because annoying later on
I noticed it existed in the bottom right, but I didn't see it have any changes to anything.
Doesnt feel fleshed out, unclear mechanics
Seems like a weak way of trying to improve the survival aspect of the game- there needs to be more environmental hazards ( wildlife, weather, npc ships and characters that actually work and aren't bugged out- please speak to Lucas about how he does the scripting for the dangerous encounters mod, or refer to W4sted's ongoing survival series to see how NPC ships should be behaving in order to add a real threat and excitement to the game ).
Feels unecessary in it’s current state. Could be interesting if it affected the player more, like extreme cold causing your health to decrease over time.
The damage done should be much less. You probably wouldn't freeze to death in 30 seconds
Not sure what it does of what its purpose was in survival mode. You could freeze and not see any adverse affects besides knowing that you’re freezing with no consequence.
New chat / inventory size comments
needs to be larger, shuttling resources early game is very time consuming and boring
Tiny inventories suck. I don't care if i am having fun wrong. I want to be able to carry enough ore/components to make a whole block...
Separate options for the Inventory size is needed for sure
Grid size default is too big. Back diwn to 1 or 2 medium size cargo to fill my needs. Make us work for that cargo space.
The 3x default is too small.
I usually play on x1 inventory size.
I played with 3x and always done that.
I like fixed inventory size for cargo containers a lot. It should be done way sooner, when cargo mass was introduced.
The chat need copy&paste. But good changes.
The good bot should mention the changes to chat
X1 was better
Ship inventory multipliers should remain, especially in the light of old saves being affected. It'll automatically delete much of a player's accumulated materials.
Faction tags should show in the chat, and the player inventory should be just a little bit larger.
I changed personal inventory to x3, it was great how it wasn't tied to ship inventory. I only play SP, so don't use chat at all.
Chat is good but small inv sizes make early game progression slow but if it was too large players could just hold m1 with the rifle (please add a reload and maybe add craft able weapon attachment instead of generic always pick the highest rate of fire rifle)
Player inventory would be a great place to add different suits such as an armored suit or a construction suit with bigger inventory as well as different jetpacks like an atmospheric pack and a ion pack in addition to the now standard hydrogen pack.
ship inventory size changed*
A bigger inventory is always nice
Im not entirely sure about the new chat commands, a comprehensive list would be awesome accompanying the launch.
The inventory size of blocks needs to be increased. I get that it’s more realistic, but it’s just annoying.
Overall test comments
I always want more, but Keen Decline everything
The harder survival, the better
This game needs a game mode like "How long can you survive". For example every 2nd or 3rd day you get a wave of drones that tries to kill you and wipe your base. Ofc it it easy at start so you can progress and build strong bases and ships.End goal, either reach and destroy their main base on a planet far away that only can be reached after wiping their bases on planets / space.
Space Engineers feel a way more interesting game with survival update. It feels more alive, but still empty.
I would like to ask to make some alternatives from grinding\welding\mining\taking or storing components gameplay. Simple economy system (EEM did it right with uranium as currency), NPC stores with trading (selling ships and buying from blueprint included).
More NPC factions, encounters, planetary encounters would be neat.
Combat system overhaul would be amazing. Bullet penetration system, ricochets.
It overall felt like a step in the good direction, but a bit disappointing. The MP overhaul took an almost unusable feature and made it usable, good even. This doesn't feel like this, survival is 1/4 of the game and before this patch it felt it was 20% there, now it's 30% there. Good, but by far not nearly enough.
Look at Subnautica, The Long Dark, Oxygen Not Included, Terraria, and so on. Space Engineers has thing they do not, they have things SE doesn't have (survival being only a fourth of Space Engineers). But on the survival gameplay mechanics, feedbacks, the way it integrate with the rest of the game, SE unfortunately isn't there yet.
If there's more big patchs for survival, then for exploration (another 1/4th of the game that's somewhat empty and shallow), then it's OK it's all good, good work. If not, that's a big issue.
This is a pretty amazing update. Nice job, Keen! I look forward to seeing the full release. Here are a few things I really like, in no particular order:
The new grid durability is nice. I like being able to actually have something left over when I crash into the ground.
The new textures for voxels, as well as the new models for dropped ore, look amazing.
- The new block models are absolutely gorgeous. I especially like the glass face on the basic assembler.
- The fact that the game now spawns you near other players is amazing, and makes the game much more interesting and exciting.
- The new chat system is so much better than the old one. It's really nice.
- The new encounters are really nice. Imagine my surprise when I found out that the drones can actually use forward-facing weaponry now! Some gorgeous encounters. And they're actually findable, which is nice.
- The new tree models are nice. Sadly, trees still aren't useful for anything.
- The UI seems to have received some extra polish, which is nice.
With that said, there's still room for improvement:
- As someone on the subreddit (RoninTheAccuser, i believe) pointed out, the caution stripes on the small grid survival kit are improperly done, with the yellow background not covering the full length of the stripes.
- The new inventory size is just a bit too small. I believe it defaults to 3x? I think it should be 5x, instead.
- I think the survival kit should be just a little more efficient at producing metals, to lessen the grind a bit.
- The lighting seems to be just a little wonky, but maybe that's just me.
- I think the hydrogen engine should be just a little more powerful.
- You still can't copy text from the chat, which is a big problem. Please, fix this.
- While we're on the subject of the chat, it'd be nice if it'd show faction tags, so you could see what faction a player is in.
- There are still no planetary encounters outside of the Easy Start worlds, from what I've seen. Planetary encounters would make the game way more fun.
- Since the last update, when you look at a block (such as a door, cockpit, etc.) that you don't have access to, it will highlight in red, instead of the normal yellow. This makes life easier, as I can actually tell if I can use a block. However, this effect only seems to apply to certain blocks. Cargo containers and other conveyor ports still highlight yellow. This is annoying, and should be fixed.
I also have a few things I'd like to see in future updates:
- Make the rifles less accurate. Currently, they have effectively zero bullet spread at most ranges. I'd like to see this change.
- Maybe introduce some other firearms, like shotguns or pistols, to give players more options when it comes to combat.
- I'd like to see a food mechanic implemented. Farming and the like would add a lot to the game.
- It would be neat to see the temperature and wind mechanics fleshed out. For example, have blocks generate heat, and make temperature management something you need to worry about. As for the wind, perhaps have it blow grids in one direction or another sometimes. Also, other environmental factors might be nice, too. Like maybe radiation hazards, when mining uranium, or when your reactor is damaged.
- To expand on the above topic, weather. Weather would add so much to this game. I understand it'd be tricky to implement, but still. Weather.
- To continue expanding on that, some basic aerodynamics would be nice. Reentry heating, air resistance, and the like.
- NPC astronauts would be cool. You could have them walk around encounter bases, performing tasks, and pilot NPC spacecraft.
- Also, perhaps add more wildlife to planets, other than spiders and wolves. Maybe animals that don't attack you.
- Some more character poses would be nice.
- Maybe add some limited story content (IE: quests). For example, maybe you encounter a destroyed base, and inside of it are GPS coordinates pointing you to something important.
- I'd like to see procedurally generated planets, and/or more variety in the existing planets. For example, perhaps a variant of the Earthlike planet that's entirely covered in snow.
That's all I've got for now. I'd like to congratulate whoever's reading this on actually making it through all that.
And to everyone at Keen Software House, seriously, great update. I love Space Engineers, and I love to see it improve. Keep up the great work!
Planetary game-play is still missing. Love new earth-like textures & trees. It was great having the whole weekend to play update. No crashes or performance issues.
We need more variety in player guns like pistol caliber smgs pistols attachments grenades c4 so that pvp and sabotage is more interesting (like sneaking on board a enemy ship with a suppressed weapon a planting timed remote charges to key points to distrupt key systems sorta like Star Wars battlefront 2 classic space battles how pilots can sabotage enemy ships from the inside
wtf u doing keen
New blocks are cool, I'd love to see even more work done on survival. I really wish there was more of a pull to going to visit other planets. There isn't any real reason to go to mars other than, look i'm on mars!
I'd love a little more RP added to the game, maybe some sort of built-in currency mechanic?
Feels disappointing to lose save games adter a few dats, though a backup of the steam folder does wonders.. :)
I hope the final release has more content added to it, this test didn't go anywhere near far enough. The G menu and over all UI / HUD needs some love to make it more user friendly.
I'm glad they're letting us test this
I support an improvement to survival, but they need to focus on the obvious and/or basic things that are missing for some reason.
What i mean is things like additional block shapes (even the most obvious and simple shapes are missing) and more options for certain blocks. (Like a camera or spotlight, shaped like a half-block and that faces to the side instead of ”up”)
Dev meeting? Would say so, yes The people are still exhausted from the payment ID meeting :) Guess we could ping some people vtnerd, moneromooo, hyc, gingeropolous, TheCharlatan, sarang, suraeNoether, jtgrassie Anyone up for a meeting? Yep I'm here Here o/ Perhaps we should just start and people will eventually hop in? oof sorry guys, I'm working on the new FFS and I forgot all about this. Got a couple of new volunteers. This literally might be able to launch tomorrow. I know that. It's called "flow" :) I could run if you're out of time? go for it dEBRUYNE you guys are going to like this new FFS. We're like 99% done. Hi rehrar: someone else do the milestone thing already? All right, jtgrassie, perhaps you'd to start w/ briefly describing your most recent PR? https://github.com/monero-project/monero/pull/5091 oneiric, xiphon did everything like....everything As far as I can see, it allows the user to push his transaction over I2P, thereby masking the origin IP of the sendeuser great And it hooks into vtnerd's PR right? Sure. It basically just builds on vtnerds Tor stuff. sorry dEBRUYNE Really not much added. I have it running and tested. From the perspective of the user, what needs to be configured exactly? Nice Assuming the PR is included in the release binaries I'm using knacccs i2p-zero duirng testing but will of course work with any i2p setup sorry dEBRUYNE <= Np Looks a little like dams breaking, now that we have some dark clouds over Kovri and people take matters into their own hands ... User needs to run i2p, expose a socks service and and inbound tunnel. Basically same as Tor Okay, so should be reasonable as long as we write proper documentation for it (e.g. an elaborate guide) rbrunner, yes, knaccc credit for jumping on i2p-zero really dEBRUYNE: documentation monero side is kindof done. i2p side is very much implementation specific. I suppose we could write some guides for the most popular implementations? e.g. i2p-zero aims to be zero conf, but i2pd or Kovri would be differnet. I see, great vtnerd___: Do you want to add anything? could amend the current kovri guide for monero use from --exclusive-peer to the new proxy support Now I have i2p-zero running and tested with the #5091, I plan to jump back over to helping knaccc on getting that polished. I added support for socks proxy in the basic wallets ^ excellent Yes vtnerd___ I havent tested it yet but looks sweet. So connections to `monerod` over Toi2p are possible within wallet cli and wallet rpc Awesome This also implies auth+encryption even if ssl is not in use (when using an onion or i2p address) All right moneromooo: are you here? If so, could you perhaps share what you've been working on? I am. I revived the SSL PR, more stuff on multi sender txes, an implementation of ArticMine's new block size algorithm. I presume a multi sender tx works similar to multisig insofar as the senders have to exchange data before the transaction can be performed right? Yes. There are 2 SSL PRs. What's the diff? Theoretically this would also allow the sender to provide an output right? Which would be kind of similar to Bitcoin's P2EP The second one adds some things like selecting a cert by fingerprint. Yes. (for the first sentence) All right, awesome For anyone reading, this breaks the assumption of the inputs belonging to a single sender, which makes analysis more difficult Nice side-effect. Much work coming for the various wallets to support that rbrunner: Anything you'd like to share in the meeting btw? Yes, just a little info I have started to seriously investigate what it would mean to integrate Monero into OpenBazaar I have already talked with 2 of their devs, was very interesting In maybe 2 or 3 weeks I intend to write a report Too early to tell much more :) Soon^tm I guess :) Yep Currently wrestling with Go debugging whole new world moneromooo: Has pony recently shared any insights regarding the upcoming 0.14 release btw? No. All right I would love to see the tor & i2p PR's merged sooner rather than later so we can get more testing done. ^ +1 Isn't that famous early code freeze already on the horizon? fluffypony, luigi1111 ^ I suppose I could provide a little update regarding the GUI btw As always, lots of bug fixes and improvements :-P selsta has recently added a feature to support multi accounts dsc_ has revamped the wizard and will now start working on implementing the different modes and a white theme dsc_ is working fulltime on the GUI already? yes :) dsc_ is bae In light of the recent payment ID discussion, we've also, by default, disabled the option to add a payment ID unless the user explicitely activates the option on the settings page rehrar ^ nice I spoke about this yesterday at the coffee chat, this is not a good decision. How does it handle integrated addresses? The same way? rehrar ? For the next many months, we are still stuck with PAyment IDs in the ecosystem. Making it harder for people to access them will make Monero suck so hard to use for the average person for many months. i agree with rehrar Remove the option of Payment IDs when we remove Payment IDs rehrar: The new GUI release won't be live until probably mid march though Which is a few weeks in advance of the scheduled protocol upgrade Payment ID removal comes in October right, but Payment IDs are not removed in March Did we not have loose consensus on removing the old, unencrypted payment IDs in march? they are removed in October We had discussed a deprecation in March and a ban in October ok, then if we are going to do that, we have to commit to it and contact the exchanges like Binance that use them and get rid of them in the next few months (of unencrypted) Binance is huge, and if they still use them, then people will be very upset that they can't deposit or use Payment IDs easily I'm just speaking from a UX perspective. I thought it was unencrypted in April and possibly encrypted in October Yes I do agree Timeline and notes: https://github.com/monero-project/meta/issues/299 impossible to remove them for march, many exchanges still use them We can defer it to the 0.15 release if needed Well, that wasn't the impression for them log that I just read today This was all discussed in the earlier meeting linked above We have to force the ecosystem off of Payment IDs before we remove them from the UI, is all I'm saying Remove != make difficult to use ... or make them more difficult there, right? ping sgp_ sarang, I understand, and I agreed with you during that meeting. But then I started thinking of it as a UX person, which I am. And that huge massive problem leapt out at me i think making them difficult to generate is a good idea but making them difficult to consume and use is a bad idea well, maybe not a good idea, but a better idea ^ If we defer the decision to depriciate long payment IDs to october, won't we have the same issue then? The UI can gave an expandable payment ID field like MyMonero and we can still call it deprecated It is foolhardy to remove an option that the ecosystem uses. So I suggest we keep the Payment ID in the UI until October when they are completely banned. no dEBRYUNE, because they will be banned via consensus sgp_ imo it may be a misdirection of dev resources to add that since things are proceeding in the short term rather than long term but this is a relatively minor point Nothing matters til exchanges change All right The issue is that consensus will still have them in April, and exchanges won't upgrade because they are still allowed. Thus they must still be in the UI. endogenic these changes are already merged in the GUI to hide it like you do ok But when they are banned, exchanges are forced to upgrade or stop using Monero, so we can remove them safely because they won't be in use rehrar: that's a strong assumption sarang that they will upgrade? yes if they don't, then they can't use Monero If exchanges require pid, users need a way to set a pid. Making it hard for the user in the interim is just going to be a nightmare. we have decided to take our "stand" in October A way that is not too hard, then To be clear, we still intend to deprecate long encrypted payment IDs in April right? But no enforcement until October the term "deprecated" doesn't mean much if it's still allowed, and used in popular places yes, as far as I understand it jtgrassie, exactly True I suppose dEBRUYNE: we need to be more specific when talking about deprecation the person who suffers is the user There are two proposals for GUI deprecation: 1. Hide it in the send screen with a simple option to expand (currently merged iirc) 2. Hide it completely in the send screen unless users enable the field in advanced settings (PR'd but not merged yet iirc) What are the arguments for 2? Both are poor options, but 1 is better than 2 by a long shot Well the people who need to be made to "suffer" are the exchanges. And I don't see a way to make exchanges "suffer" other than by having their suffering customers complain to them constantly that they need to update. ^ CLI has something similar where users need to set a manual payment ID transfer mode. Not sure if it's merged yet the way to make the exchanges suffer is when we ban PIDs. They either upgrade or don't use Monero. exact;y Agree with rerahr here have exchanges been provided with clear, practical, sufficient technical upgrade plans for supporting what they're doing with PIDs but with subaddrs? Both are poor options, but 1 is better than 2 by a long shot <= I wouldn't call 1. a poor option. Have you actually checked how it looks? Because it states "Payment ID" and a user has to click on the + to expand the field endogenic: yes the email when out. Blog post coming soon, but contains the same info as the email also the exhcnages' users are often using wallets that don't support subaddresses ok great as well, it should be noted that the timeline for exchanges to upgrade is September, not October when the fork is. Which wallets are that? Rehrar: I don't see option 1. causing any issues/confusion i guess it doesnt matter too much if withdrawing as a personal user the main address should suffice Because September is when the new versions will be coming out without PIDs in the UI If there's opposition to 2, 1 is fine. We can still call it deprecated which is the optics we need anyway exchange users are often just using other exchanges lol. No wallets involved. dsc_ dEBRUYNE, ok, I trust you guys here then rbrunner: i was thinking mymonero last i heard Ok pigeons: rbrunner yes receiving on subaddresses won't be supported yet sending to them has been possible though and yes as learnandlurkin says often they withdraw to other systems like exhcnages that also dont yet support subaddresses I really can't come up with any good argument for 2. right now endogenic: seems not much of an issue then. Exchanges will typically support withdrawals to both subaddresses and plain addresses (especially if we are going to force them to use subaddresses) For deposits, MyMonero works properly if the user sends to a subaddress Actually the second solution was already merged: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/pull/1866 Maybe not enough eyes watching :) The important thing is to have done something to justify having a big "DEPRECATED IN APRIL" stamp on PIDs to spook exchanges in the interim This was for solution 1: https://github.com/monero-project/monero-gui/pull/1855 The Monero Community Workgroup will start making noise everywhere we can to exchanges, and everywhere else that will listen. Try to get on those garbage news sites also. So everyone knows that deprecated in April, and banned in September Hey, for solution 1, write "Payment ID (optional, deprecated)" or similar there rbrunner: noted rehrar: probably wait until the blog post, but it should only be a few days Maybe a Reddit sticky post would be useful? With the blog post If people are over freaking out about the hashrate or terabyte blockchain :) sigh Any questions for the MRL side? Is someone checking ArticMine's block size changes for weird behaviour in some cases etc ? How would such testing work? Private blockchain?